Tax Law and Policy Updates with Sandy Clark, Tax Attorney at RDU-based Manning
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Tax Law and Policy Updates with Sandra Clark, Tax Attorney at RDU-based Manning, Fulton & Skinner, P.A.
Self-described tax policy geek and tax attorney Sandra Clark fills us in on what’s going on with tax laws and how it might affect high net worth clients
A top notch RDU-based tax attorney reviews the Trump-era tax changes, the Biden administration tax proposals and what Congress might actually pass. In addition, we covered when Trusts are appropriate, the end of the “stretch IRA” and her favorite places to go for business lunches.
Topics:
Tax Policy Update and Outlook.
Review of 2017 Tax Reforms?
When is a Trust appropriate? When is it not needed?
What’s probate specifically in NC and what is a typical scenario where it comes into play?
Over your career, what have you personally gotten better at and what has your firm gotten better at during your tenure?
What makes Manning, Fulton & Skinner stand out?
What is Sandy reading, streaming or are you listening to a particular podcast?
Cheap date tip: ACC Wrestling at Reynolds Coliseum.
Favorite Biz Lunch?
Prince’s Estate Debacle.
CHAMBERS: Hey everybody. This is Trevor Chambers, from Olde Raleigh Financial Group in, actually sunny, would you say it’s sunny? I believe –
CLARK: It’s fairly sunny --
CHAMBERS: -- yeah.
CLARK: -- and fairly warm.
CHAMBERS: Yeah. Raleigh, North Carolina and we love it here in Raleigh, North Carolina. And I gotta (sic) – I gotta (sic) a really – I gotta (sic) a great podcast. First of all, I’m doing this remote. I’m doing this in the offices of Manning, Fulton Attorneys at Law, here in Raleigh, North Carolina. And I’m, which is great, I love doing these remote. And – and we’re going to do a podcast with Sandra Clark, who is – has practiced law since 1994. And is a partner here at Manning, Fulton, Skinner. Excuse me, Manning, Fulton, Skinner. Sorry about that. Didn’t mean to forget the Skinner, here in Raleigh. And Sandy deals with tax law. We’re going to talk about tax law policy changes and we’re going to talk about trusts and estate planning. We’re actually – today’s podcast, Sandy is going to be brought to you by several google keywords and phrases including estate planning –
CLARK: Okay.
CHAMBERS: -- business tax planning, gifting, tax planning when it comes to family trusts, tax savings for wealth transfer and generational wealth transfer and things like that. So, that’s what we’re going to be talking about today. So, I’d like to welcome Sandra Clark to –
CLARK: Thank you.
CHAMBERS: -- the Soundtrack to the Financial Advisors Life podcast. Thank you for having me come into your office.
CLARK: Thanks for having me.
CHAMBERS: It is lovely.
CLARK: All those key words get me very excited.
CHAMBERS: Yes.
CLARK: I don’t know about our audience but I get very excited over those key words.
CHAMBERS: Sandy, the roof is going to come off this place, okay.
CLARK: Very exciting.
CHAMBERS: I mean, you know, people, honestly if -- if – if you’ve – if at this point you were like I’m not talking – I’m not listening to anyone talk about taxes, you’re going to be missing big information.
CLARK: Right.
CHAMBERS: This is –
CLARK: We’ll make it –
CHAMBERS: -- stimulating content. Yes, absolutely. Alright, so tell me about you. You’ve been at this since 1994.
CLARK: I was born, raised, grew up, went to Cary High School –
CHAMBERS: Oh, nice.
CLARK: -- lived here forever. I still live in Cary. Not the same house.
CHAMBERS: Why leave?
CLARK: But married. I have two kids that are grown now in their twenties. I have lived here my whole life and most of my client base is right here.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: In Wake County. It works well. Some of them are cooperate owners but most of them are from right around here and they’ve lived here, grew up here, and need estate planning or tax planning advice to either help preserve what they have or get it to the next generation.
CHAMBERS: Yeah. Huge role in somebodies’ financial health is what you –
CLARK: Right.
CHAMBERS: Absolutely.
CLARK: It truly – it’s – it’s a gift you give to your family so to have a good plan in place, is a gift you can give to them after your gone because it can make life simpler for them. It can make – preserve assets in a way for the next generation and generations after that. So, it’s – it’s kind of, in my mind, it’s the adulting thing to do for your family.
CHAMBERS: And you know it’s daunting.
CLARK: It is.
CHAMBERS: A lot of people, right –
CLARK: And people don’t want to do it.
CHAMBERS: Right.
CLARK: It’s – it’s not something you want to do.
CHAMBERS: No.
CLARK: And you don’t want to do it when you’re under stress if you had a medical crisis.
CHAMBERS: Yes.
CLARK: But it’s just something you gotta (sic) check off that list.
CHAMBERS: Yep.
CLARK: It’s – it’s –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- what you need to do for your family.
CHAMBERS: Well, this is why I want to have this conversation because I think we just share a lot of similar – we do a lot of similar motions when it comes to clients. So, but all that said here, I want to get into the meat – on of the – let’s talk about tax policy. Because there’s tons –
CLARK: So, we, yeah –
CHAMBERS: -- of stuff going on and this is – this is probably going to be the apex of excitement of this conversation.
CLARK: We are – the last couple years have been kind of – over – maybe overwhelming is the right word. But even the last twelve months. So even after the election last year, clients were anticipating big changes. Democrats were now controlling the house and had the presidency and there was this tie in the senate that they thought, there’s going to big tax changes. Biden had run on a policy that would have implemented many changes and they thought that was just going to get pushed through with no questions at all. And it kind of shows a little bit that our system works. No one person can control all legislation and all taxes. So, his proposal that he put out in January did not go through. We are closing in towards the end of the year where there has been a Ways and Means proposal that came out January 13th that would have put big changes in. And again, that’s already been redrafted several times by the house and senate. And we’re kinda (sic) in this wait and hold. Are we going to have tax changes? Because some of the changes were pretty dramatic at first for both personal income tax and estate planning and those now have already been paired down a little bit by the drafts in the house and senate. And we’re in this a little bit of wait and see so this is December 2nd today. I don’t know if many people know and follow this stuff like I do but tomorrow our budget actually expires. So, there’s going to be something that comes out tomorrow. It may not have any tax law changes. It’s mainly just a budget proposal. And it might be they just extend it so it expired in October. They extended it until December 3rd. But I don’t think they’re going to let the government shut down. I think that would add in our situation right now with pending inflation and our COVID pandemic is still going.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: I don’t think they’re going to let the government shut down. So, I think we’ll have some – a budget bill passed tomorrow or an extension of it. We’ve got proposals for a domestic bill that’s, some people call it the social program. That’s a 3.5 trillion policy that was proposed that’s going to get pared down, I think. And whether that gets passed or not. And then of course, we’ve got this tax proposal that could or could not pass. So, we’ve got an interesting time.
CHAMBERS: You know, and I think administrations have about 18 months of political capital to get stuff done. And so, we’re well beyond that and so, you know, now we’re getting in the midterms and, I don’t know if you have comment on that, but yeah. It’s going to be very interesting to see what actually gets done here.
CLARK: Right. So, you would think somethings going to happen within the next six months. That’s why the next 30 days could be important or even the next 60 days. Especially for tax law because after that –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- they start worrying about the next election.
CHAMBERS: Next term, exactly.
CLARK: And, a lot of times they want tax laws to be on a yearly basis. They have passed a couple things in January but they’ve been at the very beginning of January. They’ve kind of – usually our retroactive tax bill is – most people would consider unconstitutional. It’s not been done. At least in my practice time so I don’t think they would pass a bill in March that would be retroactive to January. So, a lot could happen in the next 30 days. We’ll see.
CHAMBERS: Taxes, though, on a historical basis for the personal – personal taxes. I just want to highlight that because, you know, that’s what we do with personal wealth. I know you do businesses and stuff, but they’re not anywhere near, on a historical basis, they’re still pretty low.
CLARK: Right, compared to –
CHAMBERS: Compared to –
CLARK: -- right, exactly.
CHAMBERS: Yeah. Yeah, and it’s – I’m just saying, but they are going to be going – I can’t imagine there’s going to be a framework here in the future where we’re going to see taxes not go –
CLARK: You would think so and again, the economists, the supply chain issues and the economists believe that – I’m hoping there’s not a dramatic inflation but we’ll – we should all see it in the grocery stores. You all see it every time you go out to eat. It’s – we’ve got some inflation going on now and there’s some supply chain issues going on that there could be some price increases which includes spending in the government. Which means they need more money. So, a couple things that they’re proposing is – is some income tax increases for what they would consider the wealthy and some people, you know, where that line is, will see. The one – the last proposal on capital gain tax, which effects a lot of my clients, would go from 20 to 25 percent but it’s only after individuals have adjusted gross income of about half million dollars. The reason why that one’s important to me is that I have a lot of clients as part of their estate plan or inheritance, maybe they sell a piece of family property. So, one time in their lifetime, they’re going to make over millions of dollars—
CHAMBERS: Big income, yeah.
CLARK: -- and – I’m concerned for them that they may pay out even the five percent higher tax rate on those type sales if those happen. Now, Biden had proposed that after a million dollars, the capital gain rate would just go to the highest tax bracket which would be a 36 percent tax. So, now, it’s, you know, at least they palled all that down to 25 percent tax increase. They’ve also implemented at least under the last draft, there would be an increase in corporate tax for corporations that make over, I think in that case it was five million, so. Most people, you know, in the medium tax brackets, I don’t think are going to see dramatic changes. But there certainly probably looks like there going to be some tax increases. And they’re doing it in some other ways too. We will talk about the retirement account taxation –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- that could affect everybody. But certainly, for the high wealth clients, I think there’s an expectation that, accelerate income in 2021 because next year’s taxes could be higher.
CHAMBERS: Yeah. Exactly.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: And that’s what we’re seeing –
CLARK: And the future taxes.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: You know, if you’ve got –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- something to sell, maybe sell it as soon as possible.
CHAMBERS: Hey, there’s – and there’s so much – if you’re thinking about selling your business, I mean it’s – Sandy, there’s so much capital --
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: -- looking for opportunities –
CLARK: Exactly.
CHAMBERS: -- in businesses. So, you know, given that mix it’s a good – it may be something you want to consider. We can talk about – that may be a whole separate podcast –
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: -- right there.
CLARK: Exactly.
CHAMBERS: I mean, you know. I just want to real quick, go back to the Trump tax cuts, the (inaudible). What’s your thoughts on it now that we kind of, you know, gotten years on it and we’re looking back on it and also like from business people’s point of view. If you want anything going that --
CLARK: Right. So –
CHAMBERS: Let’s go personal and business.
CLARK: Yeah. So, some of those changes helped a lot of individuals and you could argue the long-term effects may have not been positive. But short term certainly – cutting taxes increases your economic value because people are willing to buy and spend. Some would argue long term is not a great policy and that just depends usually on your –
CHAMBERS: Your point of view.
CLARK: -- political opinions on those. You know, cutting environmental issues, cutting regulations, all that short term increases your economy but long term, some people would argue that that is not a good policy going forward. He made some dramatic cuts as far as personal income tax and even estate tax. At that time, he went from Obama’s plan was, at that time, index and inflation about a six-million-dollar exemption for – which means you can either gift or die during your lifetime and anything below that exemption amount would go income tax free. He doubled that, so we’re now at 11.7 million that you can die with and give it to non-spouses and or non-charities and you would pay no estate tax on. So, it really changed quite a bit of the income tax and estate tax planning for a lot of our clients when that – that change was made, so. I think some of those could be abolished if there was new tax law put in place but right now, I think the Senate and house and the president too is – they’re reluctant to do anything that would harm families and I think if they do any tax increases it appears to be they’re targeting what they consider high wealth.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: And, you know, the question is where is that and for corporations it’s been about a five-million-dollar figure. Now Biden proposed a tax change for anybody over a million dollars and that appears that that’s even going to be higher and more like a one and a half million-dollar threshold before tax changes come in to play, so. Again, we’ll see what they pass but – but, you know, short term, I think Trump wanted to spur the economy and it did.
CHAMBERS: Oh, yeah.
CLARK: And the downside is long term as it put us in a budget crisis. And depending on what you think about, how tax policies work, some would say that that’s now why we have such a budget problem. And others, you know, who could have predicted in 2017 that we’d have this pandemic that the stimulus again, people would argue the stimulus package is why we’re having these inflation issues and some would say, oh, can you imagine if we didn’t have it. So again, depending on where your political opinion falls. Some would say that all the stimulus work went so that we curved or slowed down the crisis that we knew would happen. Especially considering how long this pandemics going on. Others would argue well that’s why, you know, you can’t give money away and –
CHAMBERS: Right.
CLARK: -- that’s why we –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- are having the issues we’re having now or believe we’re going to have now. I don’t think we’ve hit the crisis situation yet but some people –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- some people are worried about that.
CHAMBERS: You know, well we can wax and wane on that but there’s always crisis. There’s always going to be something. I mean, you know, nobody saw this –
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: -- nobody saw this.
CLARK: No one.
CHAMBERS: The COVID coming. I actually think, not to go deep, I think one of the bigger kind of economic issues, macroeconomic is these low interest rates.
CLARK: Yes.
CHAMBERS: You know, we’re lucky enough that you and I, we have assets. Our – the people we work with have assets and everything. And if you have these low interest rate environments, it’s great for assets.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: You know what I mean? Houses right now, but there’s some long-term things that we, you know, so the fed, I can’t – they have to go up.
CLARK: Yes.
CHAMBERS: They – it can’t go any lower.
CLARK: Yeah. You –
CHAMBERS: They have to go up.
CLARK: -- would think if they’ve inched up but they really haven’t. If you want to borrow money, there’s money out there.
CHAMBERS: Oh yeah.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: And particularly, like you said, if you have assets that can be used as collateral, there’s a lender out there that’s going to lend money at very low rates.
CHAMBERS: Yeah. And I’m not – I don’t think you or I are suggesting getting levered up.
CLARK: No.
CHAMBERS: Because I have – anyway, you go. Okay.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: Anyway. This is good though. I like it. Do you want to move on to estate planning?
CLARK: Well, yeah –
CHAMBERS: Or do you just want – what do you want to talk about?
CLARK: -- let me –
CHAMBERS: Yeah, yeah.
CLARK: -- I’m going to head on off another – the Secure Act kinda (sic) had a big impact on a lot of changes, so that was a little bit later. That wasn’t at the very beginning of Trumps administration.
CHAMBERS: Okay.
CLARK: That passed in 2019.
CHAMBERS: Yep.
CLARK: And that changed a lot particularly in retirement planning. So, this effected almost all our clients because retirement assets appear to be one of the biggest assets most of my clients have.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: Maybe you too, Trevor. But the house and retirement assets are – are usually your first assets that build up and then hopefully you can supplement them with other assets but the big thing that changed in retirement assets is if you gave your retirement or named a beneficiary that wasn’t your spouse, wasn’t a minor child or any of these, what they call, eligible beneficiaries, you had to pay them out within ten years. And the idea of being, and I understand the policy completely because people put retirement accounts in. They give it to their grandkids. They’re paying one percent out a year. You could stretch those things out –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- then when that person dies, they can name it to a young beneficiary. And you just almost never tax the IRA accounts. And they’re growing, and growing, and growing. And they’re becoming significant assets and they’ve done what they are supposed to do. People are using them for retirement because Social Security’s not enough. So, they – they serve their purpose but the IRS and you know our government’s not getting taxation on those at a very rapid rate. So, now the idea is they still protected the spouse. They protected minor children or disabled beneficiaries but any other beneficiary, you give it to your adult children or you give it to your best friend, or your aunt and your uncle. Those assets all have to be paid out within ten years. So, you have a big IRA account. A couple million dollars. You gotta (sic) pay it out within ten years. The beneficiary can decide whether to wait until the tenth year or pay it all out in year one or pay 1/10th each year. You have a couple options. But that changed completely some of our planning for our clients because the idea used to be how slow can we take these out. Name a young beneficiary. Maybe even don’t name the spouse. Maybe name, grandchildren instead of children and those changes now are in place and so a lot of our clients have changed their beneficiary designations on those accounts. The other thing, it affects a few of our clients is, you used to have to take retired – minimum distributions at age 70 ½, now they’ve changed that to age 72. So, a couple little changes the Secure Act had for our clients. Mostly with environmental matters.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: I mean, retirement matters. Sorry.
CHAMBERS: Yeah. So, to kind of reiterate, sometimes what Sandy’s, Sandra is talking about is, and you mentioned the phrase, the stretch. The stretch is – the stretch IRA –
CLARK: Yes.
CHAMBERS: -- is gone.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: So, let me just layer on what that means for our friends, especially the baby boomers. But it’s – is that what we see and I’m sure you see the same thing is, is that you pass this IRA down to the kids, let’s just say, right? The kids have to – the kids have made a bunch of money. Okay. And then they’re going to inherit mom and dads. So, they’re – so now the kids if they have the traditional IRAs, they gotta (sic) empty their own IRAs out and then they have mom and dads to empty out in ten years. The taxation monsoon, Sandra –
CLARK: Yes.
CHAMBERS: -- that’s coming over –
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: -- the next twenty years, if not more, guys is insane, if you think about it. It’s so much taxes is going to be coming over the bow that we’re all going to have to pay. And that’s fine. Whatever. But you have – this is what you have to start thinking about. And Roth, huge.
CLARK: Right. And their allowing some conversions. Some of those proposals on the Roth conversion, are penciled in to go away under this tax legislation. So, if you have – if you are thinking about converting a Roth, now might be the time to do it.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: In 2021, rather than wait. And again, we don’t know what’s going to be --
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- the final version but that’s something to think about. A couple other things with retirement planning, so we talk to clients a lot and we’re like, you know, what’s the tax on this? I’m like, oh they had a big life insurance. They have a house. They gotta (sic) a savings account. You’re under this exemption amount again which is currently 11.6 million dollars. No, no taxation. And then we get to the retirement account. I’m like, okay. Mom and dad or whoever never paid income tax on this if it’s not a Roth. Yes, there’s income tax on this. And that’s sometimes a shocker to clients.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: And not only, you know, if it’s again, mom and dad, not only is it a shocker you gotta (sic) pay income tax but also now that you have to pay it out within ten years. You can’t slow it down.
CHAMBERS: Yeah. That – when you do the – you know, we do financial planning for people and we show them the RMD, just their – let me just say that if you’re in Raleigh, if you’re in Raleigh or really anywhere in the world, but let’s say, Raleigh, North Carolina, RDU, and you have a pretty much paid for 700, let’s say 750,000-dollar house. Nice house. You’re in, you know, North Raleigh and you got maybe a hundred grand left on it, right, or it’s paid off. And you’ve got a three million in, you know, IRAs between you and your spouse and maybe another, you know, whatever half million in taxable accounts and your 63 or whatever. Like, when you start modeling all that out, the RMD – the required mandatory distribution column and your out of years of your retirement, meaning into your late 70s and 80s, become massive. And that doesn’t even account for anything that you would inherit.
CLARK: Right.
CHAMBERS: So, that’s what we’re talking about.
CLARK: Yeah. You can stay in the tax bracket or even increase your tax bracket after you retire.
CHAMBERS: People are like I’m in the highest tax bracket I’ve ever been in and I’m going to be in my 80s. What are you talking about? Well, this is what we’re talking about.
CLARK: Yeah. And that leads me into, Trevor, one item that – there’s not much ways to avoid taxation on those IRA accounts. They do have one charitable opportunity for anyone that’s over 70 ½ and that is to allow them to make gifts straight from the IRA account to the charity. So, if you’ve got a charity in mind that you were going to give a sizable gift to, you can give up to 100,000 from your IRA account. It doesn’t count – it counts towards your minimum distribution but doesn’t count as, you know, it’s not a charitable deduction but you could say, okay instead of taking my 100,000-dollar required minimum distribution, I’m 72 years old, I’m going to say, go to my favorite charity and as long as it’s a qualified charity, they can do that. That provision is set to expire, it’s been extended a couple times. I think it will be extended again. It’s in all the proposals that I’ve read, it would be extended. So, that – that’s probably something in this budget proposal that we hope passes tomorrow but more likely maybe passes sometime in the near future. That would probably be extended, I would think. But certainly, if you’re doing year end planning and about to take your required minimum distribution. And also have a charity in mind – you could – you could avoid the income tax on it.
CHAMBERS: Yep. Exactly.
CLARK: So, it might be a good end of the year plan, for you.
CHAMBERS: That’s 100,000-dollar limit?
CLARK: Yes.
CHAMBERS: Okay. I thought it was a little more than that, but that’s okay.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: All right, cool. Good. Anything else on that topic?
CLARK: I think we’re good on the taxation and again a lot is going to happen. I think in the next, what are we 29 days –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- in addition to a lot of holiday eating, we’ll be reading about some tax changes, I suspect.
CHAMBERS: Well, you know what we should do? We should maybe do this like once a quarter and just come back and revisit the tape.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: All right. Good. I’ve got her committed, people.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: Yes.
CLARK: Yeah, we’ll see.
CHAMBERS: I know. Yeah, this –
CLARK: You know what’s funny, so like last year, this time last year, we were doing some dramatic planning because a lot of our clients –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- Biden was elected. This is the world’s ending. Gift everything away. And so, everyone went and then he came out with a proposal in January and it was similar to what he had run on. And again, people were oh my gosh, this is going to be terrible. And then, you know, eight months went by and nothing happened.
CHAMBERS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
CLARK: And then September 13the, the Ways and Means committee sent a proposal and again, our listservs blew up with oh my gosh, this is terrible. Tax increase. And then they’ve rewritten it three times, now.
CHAMBERS: Right.
CLARK: So, I try not to get too excited.
CHAMBERS: Right.
CLARK: Until I see something in black and white that’s been signed but it’s hard not to jump on the bandwagon. Oh my gosh, what’s happening?
CHAMBERS: Right.
CLARK: So, yeah.
CHAMBERS: We should – you guys can see the smile on her face.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: I mean this with all due respect, but you’re a tax law nerd. I love it.
CLARK: I am. My family –
CHAMBERS: Wonky.
CLARK: -- hates it.
CHAMBERS: I love wonky.
CLARK: No one will talk to me about it. I talk to myself about it a lot.
CHAMBERS: That’s awesome. All right. Cool
CLARK: I’m glad it’s entertaining for you.
CHAMBERS: No, I love it. I mean that.
CLARK: I actually really do.
CHAMBERS: Listen, wait, nobody’s talking bout this.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: See like that -- that little 100,000 dollar – nobody’s talking about that guys.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: So that’s why we’re talking about it because it’s important because like, I don’t know about you but like how – your business clients, especially the ones that are here locally. You know, the small, medium size, how they doing? Doing pretty – is everybody doing pretty good?
CLARK: Most of the clients are doing pretty well.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: I – and even – okay, again, back when pandemic happened –
CHAMBERS: Yep.
CLARK: -- every restaurant owner, including law firms, like Manning Fulton –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- what’s going to happen?
CHAMBERS: Yeah, I know.
CLARK: We’re going to shut down?
CHAMBERS: Scarry.
CLARK: Everybody went home.
CHAMBERS: Crazy.
CLARK: Most of our restaurants survived.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: They did okay. Their doing okay. The biggest complaint we hear is that it’s hard to hire people.
CHAMBERS: Yep.
CLARK: Particularly construction, retail, restaurants. It’s hard to hire people. And everybody’s; increased rates. I don’t think anyone –
CHAMBERS: No.
CLARK: -- even knows what minimum wage is anymore because you’re not paying anything close to that.
CHAMBERS: No. Everybody’s had it’s 15 dollars an hour, now. That’s it.
CLARK: Yeah. But it’s difficult for some of our clients that –
CHAMBERS: Oh yeah.
CLARK: -- I think it’s – the labors impacted all of our clients. And the supply and demand. Supply chain issues. I’m a little worried that that –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- in six months might be a real big issue, you know. I know everybody can’t get their favorite Christmas toy, but more important things, like can you not buy any cars at all. Because there’s no chips anywhere. You can’t buy a computer. Those things would be very difficult to (inaudible).
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: And I’m hoping they all clear up.
CHAMBERS: I think – I will say just from my – I think I’m – I’m going to say I’m a little more hopeful on that. And I think things – I think things will be better for the most part. I think there’s going to be secular areas that are going to be just jacked up for a while. But let’s see. Like I said, we’ll come back –
CLARK: Well, most of my clients, I think are – are doing pretty well. And –
CHAMBERS: Yeah, that’s what I’m hearing.
CLARK: -- most of the individuals I know are doing okay and –
CHAMBERS: I mean, you’re busy.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: I’m busy.
CLARK: We’re Very busy and we’ve survived what hopefully is our once in a lifetime pandemic.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: That still hasn’t ended and it’s changed –
CHAMBERS: No.
CLARK: -- the way we do business.
CHAMBERS: No.
CLARK: And we’ve adapted.
CHAMBERS: Yeah, and it’s really – it’s changed the labor – I think the labor market thing is just – we can go on on that but man the labor market thing is, I think the biggest change. I think the supply chain stuff will get worked out but the labor part. As I said, 15 dollar an hour is – that’s what everybody’s just targets. I’ve got a – I’ve got a brother-in-law and sister-in-law in the restaurant business and that’s what it is.
CLARK: Yeah. It is.
CHAMBERS: You can’t – anyway but, okay. If you want to talk about estate planning?
CLARK: Let’s start talking about estate planning.
CHAMBERS: Riveting topics.
CLARK: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. It’s what I do. So, again, we talked about everybody probably needs the basic plan. And that would include even as most basic, a will.
CHAMBERS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
CLARK: That says any assets would go to a certain person or how they would go. Who’d be your executor. Healthcare Power of Attorney, now.
CHAMBERS: POA.
CLARK: The doctors aren’t going to talk to any, you know, sister, brother, sometimes they’re pretty open to spouses, but really you need a healthcare document that says who the doctors are to communicate with, if you can’t. And then in that, within that document, we have the living will provisions that a lot of people want to sign that say, what would happen if they were in this terminal, incurable situation? And then a financial power of attorney. I’m sure you see those every day. Where if something happened and you couldn’t handle your financial affairs, and it can be that you’re out of the country or got hit in the head or I have dementia. Any of those factors. Who – how would we make sure lights are kept on, the mortgage is paid? Anything, tax returns are filed. All those items could be covered in your financial –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- power of attorney.
CHAMBERS: That’s – yeah. And it – do it while you can.
CLARK: Yeah, do it –
CHAMBERS: I’m sure we’ve all seen people scrambling, you know.
CLARK: Right.
CHAMBERS: It’s not good. And, but critical. Let’s talk about trusts. When is a trust appropriate? Let me – can you give me some examples of it. And the reason why we want to go down this – this particular topic is we – we personally see a lot of trusts where there – at that stage in people’s lives, probably is not necessary and actually could complicate things. However, there are plenty of areas where they are important. So, let’s talk about trust.
CLARK: Right. If you had a trust drafted ten years or more and even really eight years or longer, it has trust provisions in there that you do not need and probably complications in there you don’t need. One thing that changed under Obama’s administration was the ability to share assets and exemptions amount with the husband and wife. All our old trust, way back over ten years ago, we called them AB trusts because they give some amount to the spouse and some amount to the kids. And they were really generated for tax purposes. Now our tax exemptions a lot higher and doesn’t impact nearly as many people. Even if we lower it down to the six-million-dollar threshold, that Biden had proposed, it would not impact a lot of our clients, so any old trust should probably be reviewed. Trusts are definitely needed for certain reasons. But a lot of times, our clients come in and say, how can I simplify things if I were to pass away. So, our goal is to fulfil their goal which if the simplification is the strongest, you know, issue they have, and they know they’re probably going to avoid.
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CLARK: So, our clients that want simplification, they may not need a trust. Trusts provide a lot of benefits so some of the benefits that are provided include, if you have a minor child, you’re going to need a trust. If you have a special needs, you’re going to need a trust. If you have a spend thrift problems and, in that regard, it might be that you have such amount that you don’t want your 22-year-old, she’s an adult or he’s an adult but maybe they can’t handle millions of dollars in inheritance. Or maybe they’re about to marry into what you consider not the best marital situation. So, trusts provide asset protection to the next generation. Again, for divorces, for kids maybe doing what kids do and not spending and investing money how you’d like them to do, you could put certain controls in place. So, all those would be reasons to have trusts. They’re also confidential. If you have complicated assets, closely held businesses, sometimes trusts are needed to continue the operation of those even if the beneficiary maybe is not running that business. So, maybe the trust is appropriate for that. So, it’s not an automatic thing that we used to do when our exemption amounts were so low, where everyone had a trust. But we try to fit the needs for the client. So, some of our clients, and I don’t know what percentage, but a lot of our clients still have trusts in place. I think the balancing thing is to decide whether you want simplification, which could include your large investment account having named beneficiaries. If you have adult children that are all responsible and just as good at investing as you are, naming them as the named beneficiary, if you were to pass away is the simplest way to get assets to them. They show the death certificate, it’s there. You don’t go through probate. Anything with a named beneficiary follows that contract arrangement and doesn’t even go under the will or through probate. So, again simplification is one goal and some people have other goals that maybe make it not simple because they, again they have –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- a family situation that would not match up with that.
CHAMBERS: Yeah. They’re absolutely essential in certain circumstances but sometimes as life changes, to your point, you know, if your family is solid and you trust everybody, it may not be a necessary item, you know. And meaning like, it’s just a stable situation. And you know that your children are going to take care of the assets in a responsible manner, then it’s not necessarily a great place for a trust. So, but I’m so glad you covered it because it’s really, really important. And by the way, beneficiaries, guys. Double – call your advisor or pull the forms out or whatever and double check your beneficiaries.
CLARK: Exactly. That’s –
CHAMBERS: It’s – it’s a huge miss. I mean, if your advisor isn’t doing it and double checking everyone. Doing and audit on that, I mean, right?
CLARK: If you haven’t checked in a while, that’s usually one of my first questions.
CHAMBERS: I’d start. Yeah.
CLARK: They’re like I don’t know. I was married to another person at that time.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: Or I think I named my mother because my kids were –
CHAMBERS: Or my brother and I’m now married.
CLARK: -- I didn’t have kids at the time.
CHAMBERS: Yeah, I mean –
CLARK: And sometimes that’s no worked out well –
CHAMBERS: No.
CLARK: -- for my clients.
CHAMBERS: No.
CLARK: And they’re – they’re not living anymore to be fussed at but they’re –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- you know, you don’t look at those forms until you pass away.
CHAMBERS: Yep.
CLARK: The same thing, your old will, you don’t really look at it until you pass away and that is too late.
CHAMBERS: What’s the trust tax rate? What’s the deal with trusts and the tax rate? Yeah, what’s that deal?
CLARK: So, trusts, if you just have a revocable trust, it’s taxed and let’s say you put your investment account in Sandy’s revocable trust, that’s just taxed under my tax return.
CHAMBERS: Okay.
CLARK: Even though it’s titled in the name of my trust, it’s revokable. It’s taxed as – as my trust. If I set up a trust that’s irrevocable, I put – I’ve given up the – the rights to it and I’ve given it to my children, that trust pays tax as if it’s a separate entity, which it is. So, if I have Hay Children’s trust that’s an irrevocable transfer to this trust, it – it files its own tax return. They have the same highest tax bracket as individuals. The problem is they’re compressed. They’re tax brackets are compressed. Currently anything, if you get up to like eighteen thousand, they’re going to be paying the highest tax rate. So, you have trade off again.
CHAMBERS: Right.
CLARK: What’s your most important thing? Is it taxes or is it, I want to make a permanent gift to my kids?
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: Because I’m trying to avoid estate tax –
CHAMBERS: Right.
CLARK: -- so again you weigh those – those options but – but they do pay. In theory they have the same tax – tax rates. It’s just their brackets are very compressed and get to the highest rate pretty quick.
CHAMBERS: That’s great stuff. I just love talking to smart people, like you.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: I gotta (sic) be honest with you. I love it.
CLARK: Well –
CHAMBERS: I’m not that smart. And so, you come in --
CLARK: You don’t want me on your trivia team. I’ve been told.
CHAMBERS: I don’t know about that.
CLARK: But if you get outside of this area, I’m not too good.
CHAMBERS: You know, you lawyers sometimes get a bad rap but I do like you guys. I mean I really do because you guys, your knowledge base is so deep. Especially since you’ve been doing it for so long –
CLARK: Yeah, I’ve been doing it a long time.
CHAMBERS: -- so it’s really just, you know, it’s ten thousand hours, Sandra.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: And I love talking to people with that masters of – you know, it’s master level. Can we move to, slightly more, what do you call it, personal question? Business practices. I ask this question because, you know, you’re doing business here in Raleigh. You do business with a lot of business people. We’re all trying to get better. Is there anything over your career that you feel you’ve honed that you may have identified at some point in your career as like this is an area I need to get better at. And then – and then that same question say for Manning Fulton. Then I’d like to lead into talk – Manning, Fulton, Skinner – I’d like to talk a little bit about the firm a little bit more and so anyway, I – that’s kind of what I wanted to ask you. You know, like what are you better at today –
CLARK: Yeah. I think I’ve been –
CHAMBERS: -- than you were ten years ago.
CLARK: -- better at able to identify particularly on high wealth clients, strategies they might want to use for gifting or for transferring or restructuring because I have the tax background and the estate background. And also, some corporate background. Sometimes I can come up with plans like oh I didn’t know that. Just – we mentioned the charitable giving that if they knew they had a large charitable gift they wanted to put in their will, we talk about maybe that should go in your IRA and be a beneficiary of your IRA. No one pays income tax on that. So, I think I’ve been able, with experience to identify situations that might help save families tax or, you know, be a simpler way. We’ve got some complicated tax structures we can do with trusts and you know, transferring assets to Defective Grantor Trusts and charitable planning and charitable trusts. And we use those some so I think I’ve been able to – that’s probably my biggest increase in business experience that now I’ve done things multiple times that I made the –
CHAMBERS: It worked.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: Like this worked out perfect and we’re –
CLARK: This worked out.
CHAMBERS: -- going to do the same thing.
CLARK: We saved a lot of money.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: Let’s – you’re a similar fact pattern. Would this work for your family?
CHAMBERS: It’s called adding value. I know that sounds really corny but it’s – that’s where –
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: -- you really add value.
CLARK: Yeah, so I think – I think that and of course it’s ever changing because our tax laws are changing and some of the strategies change some. But I enjoy what I do and I think it’s just kinda (sic) refining your craft as you would say.
CHAMBERS: Well, the other thing I’m – just sitting with you, you take a great deal of responsibility and proud of staying on top of what’s going on. And staying contemporary to what is going on in Washington on estate level, whatever. When it comes to tax policy.
CLARK: Right.
CHAMBERS: It’s huge.
CLARK: Yeah. I am in several groups that –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- we – we do meet and I follow listserv –
CHAMBERS: Really?
CLARK: -- again, I guess I’m a tax nerd.
CHAMBERS: No. I like it though.
CLARK: Maybe – maybe that’s true.
CHAMBERS: No. I mean, somebody has to be and you seem to be the first that --
CLARK: Right.
CHAMBERS: -- likes to do it. So, I’m –
CLARK: And I enjoy it, you know.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: Somebody said why do you work so hard? Why do you work, you know, do what you do and I’m like, I kinda (sic) like it.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: You know? It gives me pride and gives me purpose and I enjoy it.
CHAMBERS: Well good. I like that. I like, okay, so that leads me perfectly, so Manning, Fulton, Skinner, where – like how are you guys better than you guys were ten years ago? Where were you ten – I mean talk to me about that.
CLARK: Yeah, so I’ve been here 22 years now. I had to do the math a little bit.
CHAMBERS: Nice.
CLARK: We’ve been around 67ish years.
CHAMBERS: A long time. Yeah guys.
CLARK: So, it’s been forever and Mr. Skinner was one of my mentors back when I first came –
CHAMBERS: Oh, okay, cool.
CLARK: -- and he, because he practiced in the practice of estate planning and trust and did everything with his pencil and green pad and taught me, you know, the details that you’d want to know to – to get into this area. I think we’ve done a great job at serving our clients and adding value to them. So, some firms are big and they throw multiple attorneys at you and maybe by the time you get your bill, you wonder if you’ve gotten value. I don’t know that we do anything here that we don’t feel we’ve added value. So, certainly we charge for what we do. That’s how we make our living but at the same time, we try to do it in a manner that – that really adds value to your situation. Whether it’s estate planning, cooperate merger, litigation, purchasing real estate, any of those items – we’re a full-service law firm with the exception we don’t do criminal work. But I think we’re the best at everything we do.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: So, I’m a little bit – I’ve got some pride in it.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: I think we’re the best cooperate attorneys. I think we’re the best estate planning.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: I think our real estates the best. Our litigation groups the best. So, and I think it’s our culture here that we have a lot of hard-working people that are passionate at what they do. Similar to what I am and they’re practice area is what they’ve strived to be. We’re not so big that we have huge overhead. And that we have international offices or even interstate offices that – that add a lot to what has to be invoiced. But we’re also not small enough that we don’t have people that specialize. So, if you came to me with a real estate question or you have a large venture capital matter, I don’t have the experience of that but I can get you the right person, so.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: I think that’s what Manning, Fulton’s done well and I think that’s what made us survive so long is that we’ve – we’ve got our niche, I call it the mid-market niche, that we –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- and a lot of our clients are your neighbors and the people down the road.
CHAMBERS: Yep.
CLARK: This area has been a great area for us to grow in and thrive in and we – we thrive as our clients thrive.
CHAMBERS: Yeah, I just want to brag on you guys a little bit. So, one of my jobs – my job, personally at Olde Raleigh Financial Group is to – I do business development and I go out and do strategic development and partner – you know, meeting people like you and other people in your firm and so what basically I do is, you know, I’m always looking for the best referral network tree. It’s absolutely critical, right? And, I’ve – we’ve sent people your way. It’s been absolutely bang-up job. You guys are not the most expensive. You’re not the cheapest in town. You’ve been around for a long time and here’s another thing about you guys. You’re local. You got an office here. You got an office in Durham.
CLARK: Right.
CHAMBERS: A great office in Durham. Not that this isn’t beautiful. This is a great office and I’ll tell you, one of the underrated things about the office here in Raleigh, especially is easy parking.
CLARK: Easy parking.
CHAMBERS: Very important.
CLARK: We thought about moving downtown –
CHAMBERS: No.
CLARK: -- at one point and –
CHAMBERS: No.
CLARK: -- that’s our clients want to be able to park.
CHAMBERS: Right.
CLARK: And walk right in.
CHAMBERS: And you’re locally owned.
CLARK: Yep.
CHAMBERS: And you’re locally owned, right?
CLARK: Right. Oh yeah.
CHAMBERS: Because a lot of firms with your capabilities are these huge –
CLARK: Oh no, we’re –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- we all live right here in the triangle.
CHAMBERS: And god love those guys. You know what I mean? And all those people. I mean, that’s great but I – I what I like about you is you’re a local firm and no big vent – nobody’s come in and bought you from out of state, right?
CLARK: Right.
CHAMBERS: I like it. It’s important. Not that there’s anything wrong with that but I just – that’s what I think, so. There was one other thing I was going to ask you about the firm but I – we’ll leave that to next time. Okay, here we go. What are you reading, streaming, listening to or podcasting?
CLARK: You’ve already picked up – you’ve already picked up that I do read a lot of tax stuff. So, when I’m not reading tax stuff –
CHAMBERS: Yes.
CLARK: -- and I do kind of enjoy it but –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- I do have other interests, so.
CHAMBERS: Wait, let me ask you this. Do you like read books on like tax history? Do you do that?
CLARK: I used to do that a lot and read some constitutional stuff.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: I have not done that in the last little bit.
CHAMBERS: All right.
CLARK: I think when I had -- the kids were younger, I kinda (sic) quit doing that but pre-children –
CHAMBERS: I see. I got it.
CLARK: -- I was really big into constitutionality and Supreme Court cases and even, you know, --
CHAMBERS: Interesting.
CLARK: -- how law was made.
CHAMBERS: Oh yeah.
CLARK: I was kind of into that. Now, I think when the kids kinda (sic) came through, time became such a – I didn’t do a lot of leisure reading and it was –
CHAMBERS: How many kids you got?
CLARK: I’ve got two.
CHAMBERS: Okay.
CLARK: So, now they’re in their twenties, so –
CHAMBERS: Oh, okay, yeah.
CLARK: I’m coasting right now.
CHAMBERS: Nice.
CLARK: But, back in the day, it was –
CHAMBERS: Oh, I know. Yeah, believe me.
CLARK: -- you know, keep your head above water.
CHAMBERS: I get it. Yeah.
CLARK: So, but I do have some interests. One of my big interests is, I’m kind of an NC State fanatic --
CHAMBERS: Oh, okay. Cool.
CLARK: -- all sports –
CHAMBERS: Nice.
CLARK: -- so I mean, or like Olympics too, like –
CHAMBERS: Oh. Okay. Yeah. Cool.
CLARK: -- if it’s badminton, I am –
CHAMBERS: Yeah, you’re in.
CLARK: -- USA, USA cheering.
CHAMBERS: Oh, yeah, yeah. I got it.
CLARK: State, which you know we had the big win over Carolina last weekend.
CHAMBERS: Yes, you guys did.
CLARK: And four-time overtime. Basketball win last night, so we go to a lot of NC State events.
CHAMBERS: Good.
CLARK: And –
CHAMBERS: That’s awesome.
CLARK: -- my son wrestled at State and so we follow the, you know, --
CHAMBERS: Yes.
CLARK: -- the nonrevenue sports like wrestling. I love watching swimming. You know, the events of swimming. So, I’m – I’m all sports –
CHAMBERS: Good.
CLARK: -- kind of person.
CHAMBERS: Did you go to wresting over in – at Reynolds? Is that where you guys –
CLARK: Yeah. Reynolds.
CHAMBERS: Okay. I’ve heard – somebody – I was talking with somebody last night that’s the wrestling is awesome.
CLARK: Okay, here’s my plug for NC State wrestling –
CHAMBERS: Go.
CLARK: -- and really all wrestling, but –
CHAMBERS: Right.
CLARK: -- because I am – I was a wrestling mom. My son wrestled all through, you know, school. But you want to have some fun? Go to an ACC wrestling match and they’re at Reynolds. It’s like four bucks to get in.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: It’s nothing to get in and the crowds all in there, particularly the NC State, Carolina or NC State, Virginia Tech, which those are the big rivalries. That crowd is going to be fanatic.
CHAMBERS: Whooped up.
CLARK: And they got the band there. They got some cheerleaders there. It’s kind of a –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- and it’s all -- Reynolds packs them in so closely.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: It’s a great environment.
CHAMBERS: Yeah. Everybody sweating on everybody, yeah.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: That’s the way it should be, but you know.
CLARK: And you may not know all the rules but you’ll be –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- cheering and yelling.
CHAMBERS: Well, that’s a – what a great like – what a cheap date?
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: What a cheap date, you know what I mean?
CLARK: Exactly.
CHAMBERS: Yeah. That’s great. Okay, cool. That – I love that stuff.
CLARK: But I do read – I read some other stuff, you know, so I’m usually into the feel-good podcasts. The Oprah or Brene Brown or –
CHAMBERS: Right.
CLARK: My daughter has me on some of these murder mysteries, really not the mystery cases.
CHAMBERS: Got it.
CLARK: So, if we go on a long drive, she’ll pop in something on her phone about a –
CHAMBERS: Yeah. A story – yeah.
CLARK: -- solving the mystery. But those are probably – I usually do some feel good.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: On a podcast if I’m working out or doing something around the house, I’ll try to do something –
CHAMBERS: Cool.
CLARK: -- a little bit lighter than heavy tax law.
CHAMBERS: Yeah, I get it. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if there is like a podcast out there on like tax law and everything that has to do. There’s gotta (sic) be.
CLARK: Oh, yeah.
CHAMBERS: There’s gotta (sic) be, right? I mean, all right. I want one. You gotta (sic) send me one –
CLARK: Absolutely.
CHAMBERS: -- and we’ll link it in, all right? I mean we’ll link it in. Hey, okay, where’s your – do you have a favorite place locally here to take people for business lunches? Or dinners? Or whatever?
CLARK: So, if I have a business lunch, we are – while we have great parking, we do not have a walkable place to go eat.
CHAMBERS: Give us your location. Where’s your location?
CLARK: So, we’re on Glenwood Avenue. 3605 Glenwood Avenue.
CHAMBERS: Right, just inside the beltline.
CLARK: Just inside the beltline. Easy to get to, easy to get off and on the beltline. But we drive to –
CHAMBERS: Sure.
CLARK: -- you know, Crabtree or to North Hills is real popular, now. Probably if you said, hey let’s go grab a bite to eat, Glenwood Grill is kind of where I go to.
CHAMBERS: Yeah. Oh yeah. I was going to say, that’s a go to.
CLARK: Because you can get in there and out of there –
CHAMBERS: Right.
CLARK: -- quick. And of course, the food is great.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: So that’s mine and the easiest.
CHAMBERS: Good. What about around the house? Like where’s your – where’s your – like where’s your pizza joint? Or where’s your like, you know what I mean?
CLARK: I’m in Cary, so Waverly’s got some great places.
CHAMBERS: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s a little Italian joint in that place too. Or I think there was, at least.
CLARK: But now, if you haven’t – this is my other plug, if you haven’t been to downtown Cary lately –
CHAMBERS: Yeah, my wife works down there. It’s awesome.
CLARK: Yeah. They are really thriving –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- and some restaurants and stuff.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: They’ve got the – I just ate at the hotel, is it Midland?
CHAMBERS: Yeah, yeah. Was it good?
CLARK: That’s not the name. It was very good. Very good.
CHAMBERS: Oh good. It’s really cute down there, isn’t it? Especially at Christmas.
CLARK: They’ve got two new restaurants downtown Cary that I want to go to. There’s a pizza place and then there’s an Italian place.
CHAMBERS: Yes.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: I have – so my wife is a children’s – she runs the children’s library – the children’s department at the new downtown Cary library, which is beautiful.
CLARK: That’s awesome. Yeah, very cool.
CHAMBERS: Isn’t that beautiful?
CLARK: Yes.
CHAMBERS: Yeah, so that’s – she – shout to Ms. Chambers.
CLARK: Yeah, if you’ve ever been to a library. It’s like, you know, you expect to go into a dungeon kind of place with old books.
CHAMBERS: No, not playing around guys.
CLARK: This place is great.
CHAMBERS: This is like – like exposed beam stuff and like lots of glass and then they’re building a park out and then all those condos. It’s insane.
CLARK: And they’ll have it decorated for Christmas so again, you’re plug, walk around downtown Cary, you’ll have a great time.
CHAMBERS: It’s really, really, really cool. So, if you haven’t been to downtown Cary, it’s great.
CLARK: Yeah, so that’s – that’s probably my – my local –
CHAMBERS: Good.
CLARK: -- at home. As I try to eat somewhere really cool.
CHAMBERS: Nice. Hey, I gotta (sic) go back to – well, thanks for that but I gotta (sic) – I’m going to give you and everybody else a suggestion, a listening suggestion. A book, Ron Chernow, Titan. It’s about, okay, I was going back to that because you’re, you know, you guys do a lot of corporate law and – and you talk about John D Rockefeller, born about 35 miles actually from my hometown of Richard, New York. He – absolutely fascinating, fascinating character. So, this book Titan, I would highly suggest it. But this guy drove so much law because he -- I mean, you know, they broke up the trust and all of the lawyering that he did – that he didn’t do, that his lawyers did around his business. I can only imagine still reverberates, I mean, he – guys he was like one of the first like international conglomerates. I mean, these guys were huge footprint on this.
CLARK: That stuff does fascinate me and –
CHAMBERS: On our world.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: Huge imprint.
CLARK: And I love reading kind of the rich and famous case law, like Prince. You know, he didn’t have a will. What is the world is up with that? Or you can read about Michael Jacksons been in this long-term trust and estate tax case –
CHAMBERS: That’s kind of cool.
CLARK: -- and the big thing of question is the value of Michael Jacksons image at the time he died. Because, you know, at the time he died he was not sought after. He was considered doing funny business at his –
CHAMBERS: Oh yeah.
CLARK: -- what do you call his Ranch. You know, he wasn’t –
CHAMBERS: No.
CLARK: You weren’t wearing Michael Jackson t-shirts.
CHAMBERS: The PR wasn’t great.
CLARK: Then he passes away and it’s, you know nonstop Michael Jackson music.
CHAMBERS: Of course.
CLARK: Tributes and everything else. So, the questions was what’s the value of his life as an image which skyrocketed after he passed.
CHAMBERS: Right.
CLARK: So, of course the court case hinged on the value at death which was a lot lower value. But like I read, so when you say do I read history, I do read some history about court cases, so.
CHAMBERS: Yeah. Well, now you know we’re going to have hologram – we have holograms and so like all these people that died, there’s a whole like estate planning thing around that now, you know what I mean. Just the likenesses and images to your point. Yeah, that’s crazy. But, all right well –
CLARK: That fascinates a tax nerd like me. Maybe – maybe not anyone else, but, for me.
CHAMBERS: Yes, and on that note, on Michael Jackson and John D Rockefeller and Prince and also Aretha, I think. Here thing was a mess too, I think.
CLARK: Yes.
CHAMBERS: Which is so sad.
CLARK: Yeah, you would think people that had access to money and to attorneys –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- you know, what, Prince probably had to talk to his attorney once a week, you know. Right?
CHAMBERS: Well, you know, but these people like Prince and obviously Aretha, these artists, these guys, they’re not like – I don’t know if you guys know this but Prince was not from this planet.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: You know what I mean? I mean, you know, like I think in ’07 he did the Superbowl halftime show and if you want any evidence that, that guy was from, some other planet, just watch that halftime show.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: Because it was just like he was conjuring, I mean every possible thing that you could, you know, it’s a great – actually google it. It’s a great story, anyway, but. Anyway, but, Sandra – is it Sandy or Sandra? What would you –
CLARK: So, my dad called me Sandra. Some people call me Sandra. I usually introduce myself as Sandy.
CHAMBERS: Sandy, okay. I’m going to go with Sandy, although –
CLARK: But if I’m writing my name I put Sandra, so you call me –
CHAMBERS: Well, I was looking up your profile and it was Sandra, so –
CLARK: Yes.
CHAMBERS: -- that’s the professional but as a – you and I are friends now, so it’s Sandy.
CLARK: Yes.
CHAMBERS: Okay, good. Well, Sandra Clark, I want to thank you for allowing me to come to Manning, Fulton and I cannot forget Mr. Skinner, of course, here in Raleigh, North Carolina. Also, offices in Durham. Go check it out. They’re right in the baseball – you look out on the baseball field.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: The Durham office overlooks the baseball field.
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: I’m a little jealous. Now they can eat wherever they want.
CHAMBERS: Yeah, they’ve got some food over there.
CLARK: Yeah. They’re walking distance.
CHAMBERS: And M Sushi and M Kokko, Dashi, a Raman place, I mean I could go on and on and on.
CLARK: Yeah.
CHAMBERS: But I really want to thank – I actually would love to do this again with you.
CLARK: Okay.
CHAMBERS: And especially because next year as we get in I –
CLARK: Let’s follow up. There’s –
CHAMBERS: Yeah.
CLARK: -- going to be some changes –
CHAMBERS: Yeah. So, let’s do it. And its’ good information and people need it and again I want to thank you and I want to thank you for allowing me to come in. I’m really surprised you guys let me in here, to be honest with you.
CLARK: We will.
CHAMBERS: Thanks for the free coffee and water. I mean I may be charged on the way out; I don’t know. But, anyway.
CLARK: Yeah. I appreciate it. This was fun, Trevor.
CHAMBERS: Yeah, thank you and have a great holiday season.
CLARK: Okay, you too.
CHAMBERS: All right. Thank you.
CLARK: Thank you.
CHAMBERS: Appreciate it. Bye.
(INTERVIEW CONCLUDED.)
Trevor Chambers
Trevor joined Olde Raleigh Financial Services in January of 2015 and his primary role is new business development and marketing. Prior to joining the firm, Trevor spent 12 years working at his family’s restaurant, Raleigh’s Bella Monica Cucina & Vino. “Exceptional service, no matter the industry, is paramount and we attract clients who value and take comfort in being taken care of.”
Sandra Clark
Sandra Clark has practiced law since 1994 and is a partner with Manning, Fulton & Skinner P.A. in Raleigh, North Carolina. Sandy has a diversified tax practice advising clients on a wide range of business, estate and gift tax planning matters, family trust planning and works on the settlement of large and complex estates. Representing individuals, businesses, and charitable organizations, she helps clients plan for the orderly and tax-saving transfer of wealth, keeping current on the constantly changing federal and state tax laws. Sandy represents numerous privately-held corporations and partnerships. She has extensive experience in corporate and business transactional matters and routinely provides counsel regarding business plans, mergers and acquisitions, reorganizations, tax accounting issues, and a broad range of tax planning strategies